Just remember that allies in a war are permanently the war. They will be completely unable to withdraw, and a mutual war will end only when both parties agree to it. The conspiracy theorist in my head is screaming "it's a Goon plot to trap people in a war!"

Jericho Fraction has been at war pretty much consistently since they turned on the servers. We don't really do anything in hisec except hunt our enemies. For the longest time its been a dream of ours to have a free wardec against a huge imperialist bulk alliance so commerce-raiding amusement can happen without fiscal restraint at the pay in.

hahahaha this owns. The only people we enjoy making fun of more than you, is other goons.

And the occassional ARK loaded with filthy moon lucre. But seriously, if you guys ever get entirely sick of station-games and hisec hijinks then let mittani know and he can compose the surrender contract.

Well the other option was clearly that you guys beg the devs to change the game to your benefit. Seems that's the way you went and Inferno Wardecs are getting the huge nerfbat. Collatoral damage to salve Mittani's ego.

Then I suggest you get active on the test server feedback thread and tell the developers that you don't want the total nerf of the allied system with Inferno Wardecs because when the 1.1 patch rolls around there won't be any.

Well, these changes are massively to your benefit (to the benefit of those of you who are yellow dog wardec evading cowards I should say).

Of course not, now its impossible to match your numbers via the ally system you will never have any reason to surrender. And since the mutual dec possibility has also been nerfed there is no consequence to declaring wars - you know you *could* leave any time you wanted.

You are pretty much making my argument for me.

I think you disapproved of the possibility that the wardec might actually have hurt you.

I think you disapproved of the possibility that the wardec might actually have hurt you.

hmmm how about blowing up your jump-freighters full of moon minerals :)

the patch notes say that each defensive ally will now incur a charge to concord that will increase exponentially on the total number of allies.

We don't have numbers yet but lets assume the cheapest will be 1m isk. If the cost increase goes something like:

1,2,4,8,16,32 etc ... by the time we reach our current number of allies it'll cost more isk than exists in Eve online each 2 week period to maintain our current roster against you.

You might well have wanted more targets Benway Kado, I was happy to accomodate you, but your alliance leadership thought otherwise and has been on a whine-line-crisis phone to the CSM.

I'm pretty sure it was the "mercs" who were whining to CCP about this, since now if you get wardec'd and want help you just put up an advert and the various hisec pvp bottom feeders will flock to your banner. No more multibillion contracts, no more reputation building campaigns--or at least, they'd get lost in the fray and you'd have bottom feeders seeking to mooch credit.

---Update.

Sad news everyone.

Goonswarm have whined CCP into nerfing the Inferno Wardec System because they hated the idea of ever losing even a fraction of their numerical advantage.

Basically defensive allies are being massively nerfed and it will no longer be possible to lock an attacker into a conflict via mutual war that includes any allies at all. (This means that Goonswarm will be able to shed significant offensive wars any time they please without consequence).

And on financial matters - the implication is that it'll be more expensive to call sufficient allies as a defender than it is to make the initial wardec from a 9000 person alliance against a 100 person alliance.

Ah well shrug really.

I guess we'll call it a form of moral victory that Mittani was forced to beg his mates at CCP to nerf the Inferno Wardec System because Goonswarm was being effectively opposed through the ally system.

I didn't read the whole thread.

Did Jade fail again and is now typing a lot of dumb words?

They will be considerably more careful in the new system I think.

Same reason they declared it ...

Wounded Pride.

ITT Jade Constantine presumes he's relevant.

Last I checked, Burn Jita was done with a dozen wardecs, including every one that's been actively shooting us currently. Same with Hulkageddon. You should really check out CCP Punkturis' new war history UI, it's quite nice.

Seriously it's not like these aren't easily checked facts that are matters of public record. EVE records a frightening amount of data, between killmails, APIs, and everything else.

If you want a real sense of damage done, compare damages lost here to our past losses to wardecs via idiocy (we've always had some really good JF loss mails, you like us dying, I'm sure you'll have a blast doing this). Then look at what us losing a ~200 man drake fleet, with support, to the man looks like (this happens often, the last one I was in I was the last scimitar to be killed of our 15 setting out, with 3 lucky ones making it out). Presuming that ISK has anything at all to do with our strength (I'm reasonably certain you understand pretty well that it doesn't, but it can be hard to tell), you can get a relative sense of damage done.

I mean it's kind of a pointless exercise, as we reimburse fleet losses, even large ones, and, excluding hulkageddon, tend not to reimburse things in high sec. For hulkageddon, you don't even need to be in alliance to get paid (See http://hulkageddon5.machine9.net/?page_id=5 for details, though it hasn't been updated to reflect our new Junior league). But it's neat, and uses the tools CCP gives you, and gives some sense of concrete data, beyond 'Oh, they posted, I must be winning!'

Edit: In case you're wondering, i'm posting to bring you data as helpfully as I can. And to see what words you'll spew next.

ITT Jade Constantine presumes he's relevant.

INFERNO 1.1 DEFENSIVE ALLY SHIELD ENGAGED (QUICK LETS PROTECT THE LARGE ALLIANCES EDITION!)

As anyone who has been following galactic politics will now know the Inferno 1.1 patch has effectively removed large-scale defensive coalitions of small organizations from the game. The impact of these changes is pretty vast. Today we were offered assistence in our war against Goonswarm Federation for the princely sum of "1m isk" from Privateers alliance - a great deal one might think! Unfortunately Concord has placed a 10,485,761,000,000.00 ISK "admin fee" onto the transaction so this probably marks the end of our fun and games.

I really wanted to buy another house in a couple of years so I can't really afford to pay an estimated $300,000 real life dollars to bring a 52nd ally into my internet spaceship war however much I'd love too

***

And while everyone digests that little piece of insanity I'll take the opportunity to say a big thank-you to the following corps and alliances who opted to show solidarity with the Star Fraction as defensive allies over the last couple of weeks. As far as we know the allied contracts will continue for 2 weeks now then pretty much end forever.

So thanks to:

Next Era Dawn
Sons of Michael
The Blacklist lTd.
Hostile Kids
Spontaneous Castigation
Tremendous Fail Inc.
Pandora Cartel
Kutisha ujuzi
The State
INVARIANT TENSOR
Kursk Security
Envy.
I know Right
Moustache Twirling Space Cads
Multicultural Appreciate Society
Dukes of Noobs
P I R A T
C.I.A NRDS
We help Noobs
Angelservice
Born in Sodom
Ex Obscuritas
Nocturnal Twins
P O D
Let Us Sleep
New eden Lotto
Advanced Ballistic Retail Armoury
Unicorn Zero
Kamikaze Tactics
Pods Must Cry
Iron Oxide.
New Oregon Republic
Labour anal
Kicking Smurfs
We Have flatulents
I AM UGLY AND THIS MAKES ME ANGRY ALSO JUMP
Owl Squadron
Freight Club
Tactical Nightmare
PAX Interstellar Mercenary People
Destruction Overload
The Chihuahuas of War
Moar Tears
JESUS CHRIST IT'S ROBOT UNICORN ATTACK PARTY
Corpus Alienum
Hikage Corporation
Terry Mad Tuff Tuffs GmbH and Co. KG
Electric Society
Samoan Joe's
Rowdy Ramblers

***

At the time of writing the Star Fraction coalition is beating Goonswarm by 14.8b isk (and 122 kills) to 1.7b isk (and 27 kills) and the top kills on the heroic guerilla side are still "Freight Club" with their 9b isk Ark Jumpfreighter kill.

In two weeks time when the Goonswarm memorial DEFENSIVE ALLY SHIELD comes fully into operation I'll have a quick count up of the totals and give a fleet tempest (ironically contributed to the defensive effort by the goon economic cabal) to the defensive ally with the greatest performance in the war to date.

So you still have 2 weeks from today to murder goons - give it a good try everyone (9b isk is the score to beat).

All the best.

So thanks to:


Spontaneous Castigation
Moustache Twirling Space Cads
I AM UGLY AND THIS MAKES ME ANGRY ALSO JUMP
The Chihuahuas of War
JESUS CHRIST IT'S ROBOT UNICORN ATTACK PARTY
Terry Mad Tuff Tuffs GmbH and Co. KG

Thanks for the opportunity Jade. A war against the goons will look nice on my war history.

Cheers,
AA

You sound a bit embarrassed about the complete trouncing your side now has on your permanent war record.

We're not going to get very far in a discussion if you insist on telling lies and making ridiculous statements in your first sentence.

As I said, unless you can post truthfully for a least one sentence (the first one) there isn't going to be a discussion.

All I (and most other posters it seems)

Well the last "neutral" example supporting your argument you conjured was a TEST alliance pilot. That wasn't very convincing

As for the rest of your post above I stopped reading at the point you attempt to editorialize my statements. You are quite dishonest and its not worth anyone's time to when you start posting in this way. Make your own statements, they can be dealt with. But you literally cannot be trusted to recount anybody else's words in a reliable manner.

Well, what can I say, if thats your main then you have my pity really "zim." According to Eve kills and Battleclinic you haven't been involved in any kind of combat action since February 2010 (excepting the novice frigate+pod you lost in the summer of 2010) I guess that means you are either incredibly out of touch with things actually happening in game or simply telling fibs about the status of your actual "main."

This Warfare and Tactics forum is really for people who play the game and get involved with well ... warfare and tactics. You haven't been involved with either for over 2 years.

So go ahead and prove it and we can go on with the debate.

Obviously we will agree to disagree. From your perspective you probably feel you achieved top dog position by your pure playing skill or something - but from outside your coalition it simply looks like CCP allowed the 0.0 game to stagnate completely and you guys best exploited the situation.

Why is it everytime you are presented with an argument you can't answer you end up posting 3 completely content-free posts? You have already admitted you got your other forum account permabanned for bad posting - don't you think you have a lesson that could be taken from this?

Well he did previously admit he'd gotten banned for bad-posting on this forum.

One of the biggest problems in conducting a discussion with a 9000 man organization is the issue with when "we" is collective or singular. I say that "zim" has no understanding of mercenary realities or wardecs and its "we do" (meaning the 9000) I say that a particular goon has done something foolish and suddenly the collective responsibility is vanished. It means we literally speak different languages. Perhaps the best thing of all is that we simply remain in contention and shoot one another. Unfortunately the 1.1 Inferno wardec patch removes competitive dynamism from that option so nothing but forum angst remains.

in response to goon (and test) whining.

"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included)

Okay hereGÇÖs what I understand of the way wardecs work now with inferno. Entity X pays a fee to declare war against entity Y. This becomes a formal war. Entity Y has a couple of options at this point. It can:

a) Fight the war alone
b) Call for allies to fight the war
c) Offer a surrender to the aggressor

and

d) Double-down by declaring the war mutual.

Ways of finishing a war (again to my understanding)

1) Beat up the aggressor so they stop paying the war and the war ends (all allies go home)
2) Get beaten up by the aggressor, offer a surrender that the aggressor accepts (all allies go home)
3) Run away and hide so the aggressor gets bored and stops paying for the war anyway
4) Disband alliance / corp etc and skulk off like a yellow dog

Now these all really give the aggressor a bit too much power to either pay or stop paying and thus control their own involvement in the war. The aggressor could even run away and keep paying just to save face before claiming an accidental GÇ£oops we forgot to pay concord this week :shrug:GÇ¥ style excuse

So to the more interesting option in the new system making a war mutual.

By the text of the Inferno war blog it seems that if the war fee is zero (as it will be in mutual war) then the aggressor can no longer just :shrug: and forget to pay the bill they are stuck in the war as long as the defender wants them to be. This means the aggressor would have to propose a surrender contract that is accepted by the defending entity (and would presumably have to be worth quite a bit!)

Now originally in the Inferno war blog they said they didnGÇÖt know what to do about allies in a mutual war and discussed having the allies drop and barred from joining if the war is made mutual GÇô but it seems CCP thought the better of that option (which is good because otherwise there is a huge advantage for a large power deccing a smaller one). IGÇÖve tested making a war mutual, and adding allies to the war on top and the functionality works.

So to the destruction test of the new wardec system.

My alliance GÇ£The Star FractionGÇ¥ has been wardecced by Goonswarm Federation. Presumably as part of MittaniGÇÖs GÇ£ministry of love/deathsquadGÇ¥ kneejerk against forum foes GÇô but really the details donGÇÖt matter. Currently The Star Fraction is about 9000 members smaller than Goonswarm. The Goons have enough isk to maintain such a wardec for about ten million years so from their perspective would be eternal as long as they want it.

This didnGÇÖt sit well to my taste so I decided to make it mutual. This means the war is eternal unless they surrender to The Star Fraction. A surrender contract you can be assured will be widely publicised and circulated. The minimum sum we're likely to accept from Mittani for a surrender will be 5 billion isk per active ally we have at the time of the surrender but we promise to invite the heads of all allied corporations into a channel to discuss and vote on such terms and division of spoils across all allies

We do however have a bit of a problem. WeGÇÖre currently allied to the republic militias fighting against the Amarrian 24th Crusade and formally wardecced against both the Amarrian Imperium and the Caldari State GÇô which rules our ships out of sensible combat options across the majority of hisec where the goons like the travel.

So we need more allies!

Our allies will get for the grand cost of GÇ£well nothing reallyGÇ¥ an enduring wardec with the largest alliance in Eve Online which will last as long as it takes for Mittani to offer a formal and expensive surrender to the Star Fraction.

I will accept all allied assistance offers as long as the contract is offered for free.

My ambition is to see hisec New Eden turned into an Inferno-scale grand war of Goonswarm Federation (9000 members) against 9000 heroic rag tag mercs, independents, vengeance-seeking ex victims, rival warlords, in fact anyone who wants to shoot Goons in high security space anywhere in new eden.

If this can be done it would mean more people would be on the books on the Goonswarm Federation vs New Eden (hosted by the Star Fraction) wardec than in Gallente vs Caldari faction war, and you have to admit that would be rather grand.

• IGÇÖd like to test the system to this extent.
• IGÇÖd like to see if CCP planned for this kind of huge mutual all-encompassing wardec
• IGÇÖd like to see an outfit that is initially 9100 v 100 outgunned use the ally system to significantly even the odds.
• And I'd like to see if Eve's biggest organization can be hoisted on their own petard and humiliated by the wardec system.

So if you are interested in adding 9100 FREE wartargets to your hisec activities whatever they are then open the Wars dialogue in your corp management screen and search for GÇ£the star fractionGÇ¥ select the GÇ£Goonswarm Federation vs The Star FractionGÇ¥ (mutual war) option only and offer assistance. If you make the offer zero isk IGÇÖll accept it and welcome to the free war against the fattest target list in New Eden.

The Inferno 1.0 "escalated" war is over (that ended when CCP changed the war rules to prevent large scale defensive coalitions.) The incoming goon "grief war" (or whatever) will likely continue to the end of Eve since there is no way to force an attacker to drop a wardec whether they intend to fight it or not (and goonswarm have enough isk to maintain the wardec until the earth's sun shrivels up and the planet becomes a barren lump of ice.)

Presumably this was the intention of the 1.1 patch.

Really? All I've seen is "TEE HEE HEE YOU GOONIES ARE SCREWED NOW", and absolutely nothing about how to fix this problem (in fact, you seem to refuse to see this as a problem).

I don't think many people actually believe them (certainly not the "mercs")

Second page of the first thread on 1.1 I made a proposal to resolve the issue here No suggestions were "hidden" and this proposal was generally praised by most independents in the discussion thread. CCP's only substantive objective to it was "wars in eve aren't meant to be fair" - which is ironic given that the fairness to "mercs" and 0.0 alliances getting dogpiled were the major factors cited for the 1.1 change.